I'm thinking about a really common example
that we work with which is
that people don't know
if it's right to stay in their marriage
welcome to relationship philosophy
my name is Jenny Morrow
I'm a 20 year marriage therapist and relationship coach
let's dive in
today I have an amazing guest today
I've got my husband Bryce Bauer on
Welcome Bryce
good to be here Jen
so Bryce and I do all of our couples work together
when we're doing couples coaching
it's the two of us with couples together
and so it's really fun to have him on
Bryce and I spend a lot of time
talking about the philosophy of life
and relationships
and so I'm really excited to have his thoughts
you'll get two different perspectives here
there might be things that we see the same
there might be things that we see differently
Bryce also has his own podcast called
Relationships Made Simple for men
go check it out cause
we have some amazing episodes there
alright anything else you want to say
Bryce before we dive in now
let's do it
so one of the biggest fears
that can keep us from moving ahead with our lives
is our fear of making the wrong decision
and so today I wanted to talk about
how we relate to the fear of making decisions
and I'm going to use a philosophy
that comes from Susan Jeffers
this is a perspective
around how we can look at making decisions
and how we can navigate our fear
of making the wrong decision
so what I'm gonna do is
I'm gonna teach Bryce and everyone listening
her model here and then
Bryce and I are going to dive in
and talk about our perspectives
what way this model might be helpful
what ways it might be limiting
how you could use this philosophy in your own life
with your relationship with yourself
with your fear of making decisions
and in your relationship to others that you're close to
so Susan Jeffers got her PhD
I believe back in the 70s
and she ended up writing a book called
feel the fear and Do It Anyway
she is no longer alive this is still one of my favorite
personal development books
so I love to go back to this one
and
I've recommended it to a lot of clients over the years
and I don't know
there was something cool about a woman getting her PhD
back in the 70s
I know that that was a lot less common at that time
and then putting this book out
and it just was a really popular book
so first
I'm going to show you what she calls her no win
decision making
so you mean no lose oh yes
her no
no no no
this is her no win decision making model
okay so she says this is what most of us do
is we kind of default to this no win model
so I'm glad you caught that
um and I'm gonna set my mic down
it might be a little bit more quiet here
for just a moment okay
can you still hear me all right
okay
so her no win decision making model looks like this
you stand at a choice point and you look down one path
and you say is this path right
or wrong then you look down another path and you say
is this path right or wrong
and she says your heart feels heavy
about the choice you have to make
you might feel somewhat paralyzed
when you think about consequences
in life or death terms
sometimes we stand at the threshold of decision
lamenting and obsessing
should I do this or should I do that
what if I go this way and that happens
what if what if
so she talks about kind of
the chatterbox comes online
there's a lot of what ifs
and this is just how a lot of us see decision making
and especially when the stakes get higher
or when the perceived stakes get higher
so either way it can increase our attachment
to this no win model that a lot of us have
so she says go back and stand at the choice point again
now here is her no lose model okay
in her no lose decision making model
she says go back and stand at the choice point
she says the difference is that you look down one path
path a and instead of wondering
is this right or wrong you see it and you say
path a is right then you look down path B
and instead of saying is this right or wrong
you say path B is right
notice that what lies ahead are simply two paths
or it could be you know multiple
but when you simplify it into two paths
path a and B both of which are right
each path has nothing but goodies along the way
you are clearly facing a no lose situation
and what are these goodies
they are opportunities to experience life in a new way
to learn and grow to find out who you are
and who you would really like to be
and what you would like to do with this life
each path is strewn with opportunities
despite the outcome and then she goes in and kind of
talks a little bit more about that fear
that a lot of us have around
like ah
what do you mean despite the outcome so that is
it's her basic no lose decision making model
I'm curious Bryce
like what your first thoughts are around this model
and then we can maybe talk about like
pros and cons or advantages
disadvantages to this mindset from your perspective
and maybe how it can play out in relationships
yeah so I mean
and my skeptical mind comes online pretty quickly
and thinks of ways to punch holes in that idea
but that's a smaller voice
because I understand
and I've used this model in my own way for a while
which is the things that really matter
if I'm making a conscious choice about something
and there's two things that I really value
I think this is a great model for that
like I can go through all the what ifs
but staying in decision paralysis doesn't help
and if I really think
that I can make a right or wrong decision
the way I make decisions at least
like I'm not in active addiction right now
I'm not gambling you know
those are some of the holes I could punch in it
but I think
for the things that people really do get stuck on
this works and yeah
it makes sense
that we understand the world through better word
right or wrong we're imagining outcomes
so it makes sense that we get anxious about decisions
but if we frame it as a learning process
we're just really honest with ourselves
about the purpose of making the decision right
like a lot of times
people are in this place where they're like
I want to do good I want to help
I want to do what's right for me
and when we get stuck there in right or wrong I
I don't think it helps and so ultimately
we do have to make a decision
commit to something and
and see what happens
and really honor and love ourselves in the process
so I imagine this is where she's going with that
and what would
what would you say is a decision in your life
that maybe you could look back on
and people might say oh
that was a wrong decision
but you look back on it and you're like
actually even though it might have been difficult
or even though there might have been
difficult outcomes from it
I don't see it as a wrong decision
do you have anything like that in your life
totally yeah
I have a lot actually
I mean I've lived a life less
a road less traveled let's say um
kind of a unique life so selling everything I owned
literally everything to go travel the world
I could see some people looking at that and saying
well how are you preparing
for the future you used all your money
you spent almost two years doing this
just to have this experience
to which I didn't have any
anything other to show for
other than experience and I think wisdom and joy
but there were a lot of hardships too
there were times when I thought
why am I doing this
and it made more sense to just go back home
and start my normal life so yeah
that that's an easy one I could point to
it was not easy to sell my car
and buy a one way ticket to Australia
for a job I didn't
I didn't even know that I had yet but to me I I saw
value in that I'm like even if this all blows
up and I have to fly back home this is what I wanna do
I'm not hurting anybody in the process so
I think it would have been okay too if I
decided not to do that
and gone a different road but that's
that's a pretty easy one
I love that and right there when you said
even if this all blows up you were kind of standing
at that choice point in a space where you were like
looking down a path that could have
call it difficult consequences or a path
that some people might be like that seems not smart
but you were clear
enough about your desire it sounds like in that moment
I will handle what comes from it
totally yeah I I had no formal education
I had no money and no assets or anything I wasn't
it would appear
from the outside that I wasn't preparing
to set up my life in any way
but I felt like there was gonna be
something that I would gain from that that was gonna be
just as valuable if not more than
some of the more normal decisions that people make
it's interesting as you say that because I'm realizing
that sometimes
I've thought it's easier to do this
when the stakes aren't as high
to move over into the no the no lose model
but as you're saying that
I'm like I actually wonder if
the thing that makes it the most doable
to move into that model
is when we're clear about our decision
when we're like I can handle the outcome
whatever it is because I am
I want to have this experience
and who knows right
like sometimes we might have outcomes and
and have to navigate an experience of regret
like that can happen too
where we might feel really clear about something
and we move forward and it doesn't go like we thought
and then we do experience psychological regret
and I do think it's easier
in the beginning of the process
to use the no lose model
when we have a clarity about something
we really care about our desire
even if there's quote
higher stakes or whatever
right
alright it's easy to say maybe for me in that situation
because I know I wanted to do it
there was fear there um
I was running through some what ifs but I was clear
enough versus maybe someone who's like
I'm not totally clear on what the
the value is here the stakes do seem high
and
I feel a lot of compassion for people in that position
I tend to be pretty decisive
I'm the one who will jump off the cliff first
because I don't want to hang out in that
on the fence about decisions
you probably know that about me
so I might not struggle with this
in the same way that some people do
where it comes up more and more often
or you're in a relationship
I'm thinking about
a really common example that we work with
which is that people don't know
if it's right to stay in their marriage
and that's a huge decision
especially when there's kids involved
and there's huge impacts there
we have that book that we recommend
too good to leave too bad to stay
so yeah
I can see how this applies
and it it
sometimes it just gives us a little bit more of a
more space to think about something
when we try
on the idea that we can't make a wrong decision
and I don't know how many conversations I've had
with people where they're at that choice point
and I'm like if you leave it's okay
and if you stay it's okay
and people tend to relax when that happens
and not that I'm not telling people what to do
or what not to do
but I'm trying to help their nervous system relax
so that they can think about it more objectively
and get clear on what they really want
because sometimes the anxiety is so big
that we can't even get a sense of what our desire is
because there's just too much fear there
at least that's that's how I look at it
yeah
and that seems extremely helpful I like how your
talking about it this model
and this philosophy of thinking about decisions
in right and wrong
it can just help to ease our nervous system
and create space to slow down
and even get more clear about what we value
or what we want and yeah
reminds me of one of the decisions I made
it was prior to leaving religion
so it was right at right at the precipice
between choosing to being an active
religious person to saying
I actually want to leave this organization
this group and so I was right kind of on that line
and I was very much in the no win model initially
like what's right
what's wrong what's right
what's wrong
and I thought about that even for a couple years like
what do I do here what do I do here
and I remember having kind of a
call it a prayer or a meditative moment
and I don't know if I read the book yet
too good to leave too bad to stay
I wouldn't be surprised if I had
because one of the questions in that book says
what if god came down and said to you it
it truly does not matter what you choose
like basically
that there's just ultimately
there is no right or wrong
all of a sudden I imagined god in that moment saying
you can you can stay in religion or you can leave it
like it doesn't matter
to me both paths are equally valid
and it was in that moment
I was like all of a sudden
I felt this pressure release
and it was like okay
I can go if
if going is just as valid as staying
and god would not care one way or the other
then I can go and it was just this like
really freeing moment
so it is interesting to think back to that
seeing is both paths are are valid
both paths are right and it's really kind of like yeah
yeah it sounds like it opened up more choice for you
because
if you're feeling so much pressure to make one choice
or not make the wrong choice
you can't really access what you really want
that's kind of what I was getting at too
is there's some ways that
there's some tools we can use to release some
of that pressure
get more into our prefrontal cortex or our heart
how we look at it and really tune into what we want
I think that's a better way to live life
it'll feel better for us in the long term
versus feeling like we chose something
just because we didn't want to make the wrong decision
and we just live in that pressure
I don't think that tends to feel good for people
long term and there's another thing that came up for me
as you were talking which is
that it seems like a lot of this is tied to self worth
and value a lot of times
what we're concerned about
is what other people will think
because if people think negatively of us
or our decisions
then our value will go down in the world
people will leave us they won't want to be around us
they'll judge us and so again
this is getting into deeper waters where
like if we believe
that everyone has the same amount of value
and that cannot change then this model works perfectly
but if you're in a model like your religion
this model where like
your value can go up and down
depending on what decisions you make
whether or not you drink coffee even like
that can create some paranoia in us
because our value is our most important thing to us
and if we think that's dictated uh
by certain rules um
then can create a lot of stress
and if I think
when people are living within the bounds of the rules
that have been created for them
or they created for themselves
maybe they won't feel that stress
but when you start to push
push against that a little bit
that's when all the stress comes in
and then people want to go back into the box and be
like I'm gonna go back to doing things
the way I think I should be doing them
yeah it can feel safer
but over time I think that pressure grows
so this is really a way I think
to live more freely
and openly and honestly with ourselves
yeah I do believe that all humans
have the same amount of value
and that does not go up and down
based on your decisions I'm even imagine
as a religious person the way I would have described it
which would have been like
oh no I
I don't believe our value changes
I believe god values us no matter what
but our our choices lead to certain consequences
and certain consequences will mean
we can be in the presence
of god more or less right
like that was the story of my religion
but I think there is something around
seeing ourselves as separate from god
right that
like if we can make a decision
and it can mean that
we then don't have as much access to god
I think even though we might say fundamentally
our value is the same it still
it still has an impact so maybe that's it right
there's different ways that all these little
pieces can be looked at so for some people
their value does go down
when they make certain decisions
the viewpoint for other people
the value might stay the same
but the consequences might be different
and however we look at long term consequence
so I guess my question for you next would be
have you ever made a decision that then you do regret
you look back and you're like
I wish I hadn't done that and
and
either that regret has stayed with you over the years
or you've navigated some process to reduce that regret
or deal with it or something like that
that makes sense yeah totally
and I've done a lot of things that I regret in my life
specifically when I was younger
prior to going into drug and alcohol treatment
and you know
one of the terms that I was thinking
of is big V value versus little V value
when we talk about our value as people
so I don't think the big V ever changes
but yes
I think there are consequences to our behaviors
obviously um
that will have an impact on that
so examples from my life yeah
I mean I think that I treated partners really poorly
when I was younger and if I could go back
I'd wanna like
give him a talking to and be like
hey wake up
you're not treating this person very well
and that's due to your own struggles
so I think about that sometimes
I have a lot of compassion
you know
because I've gone through this process of realizing
what what was wrong with what was happening
and I can see that younger self and what he was doing
and you know
just how unconscious he was really
so I don't feel a lot of shame about that anymore
I know that there's things that could happen
that would trigger that up
but yeah
I mean
lots of examples of how I was just treating people
disrespecting my parents not appreciating them
same with partners yeah
thinking back to the struggles when
when I had a girlfriend in high school
we were both really struggling with our mental health
and it was a toxic relationship
so I can look back on that more objectively
and see that the way that we were treating each other
was our
was coming from our wounds and our strategies
and so yeah
I can feel a lot of compassion for her
and what she went through
and also for me
yeah and right there
I was curious what goodies did you get from the path
that now you look back on
and you have you're like oh
I regret that I did that what were the goodies
if any well
I think
like a lot of people we find our
some of our greatest strengths
and through our own struggles
people tend to help wanna help people
with things that they've struggled with themselves
so me going through addiction
me really struggling in relationships
now
I'm someone who can help people with their sobriety
and emotional sobriety
I can help people with their relationships
I really know what it's like to get that wrong
so I think that's a big part of the goodies
would would I have grown as much as I did
had I not crashed out as early as I did
and gone through what I did
I really don't know but that's
that's just my path so the
the goodies that came from that
is that I had to wake up grow up at a pretty early age
because of what I went through and in my decision
so I don't regret that at all
it made a lot of sense that yeah
there's no way to go back in time
and know whether it even was an option
to do it different right
like we sometimes think we have free will
and Bryce and I talk a lot about this
we don't know whether or not we actually have free will
and how much we actually have whether or not we do
and so I like that you can look back
and you've done so much growth
and so much learning since then
that even though you look back and you're like
oh I would go back and like
wake that kid up
knowing what I know now it sounds like it was your path
that got you to where you are now
yeah
and I think that we
we can think about time as we understand it and
you know that's the past
there's nothing I can do about it
but I think that that boy
that teenager still lives within me
you know I'm familiar somewhat with parts work
so I think I have to reparent that child still
and I'm a
I'm the conglomeration of all these points in my life
so even though I can't literally
get in a time machine and go back
I think that I've done that
in little ways throughout my adulthood
is going back and tending to that kid
or those parts that come up and yeah
wanna be rebellious and wanna fight and um
wanna self destruct in some ways
like I I still have to work with those parts
so I think I'm talking to him in different ways
all the time and
I've even done exercises
where I've gone back in time in my mind
and thought about how I would deal with a situation
being me now and that's a helpful exercise
I do that with clients sometimes
I don't see time as really a barrier to going back
and healing that and dealing with that
even though I can't literally change the past
there's one another thought popping up for me
as we're talking about the fear of making decisions
and how we relate to it
and one of the things I have found interesting
is just how we relate to fear in general
and so sometimes
I hear this idea
that we should always be facing our fears
and facing it meaning
like doing the things we're scared of
I don't have that same perspective myself
I find it more interesting to think about the idea that
there are some things
that I really value that I really care about
that I want to do that I will be afraid of
and that in those situations
it's really helpful for me to
to do what she says here on the title of this book
feel the fear and do it anyway
like there are times in my life
where it's really helpful to feel the fear
and do it anyway
and then there are times where I have felt the fear
and done it anyway and realized that what I was doing
wasn't really something I valued or cared about
and so
I think that's one thing that I have Learned myself
from kind of this idea of
standing at a choice point and making a decision
because sometimes fear can be confusing for me
I'm like does fear mean that I don't wanna do something
or does it does fear mean I do wanna do it
and I'm just scared
and what I have come to find for me is that it seems
like fear can be there whether I wanna do something
whether I kind of wanna do something
and even if I don't wanna do something
like fear can just exist in any of those scenarios
so for me it doesn't always work to say like oh
if I'm afraid of something
then I should do it but what does help
is to acknowledge that fear can exist
in any of those scenarios
and I can again keep using
all of my decisions
to get more and more clear on what I do value
and what I do want so she has one other part here
another picture in this book
where it says the off correction
or the off course and correct model
so she also says that there's this idea that
just cause we make a decision
doesn't mean we have to stay with that decision
like we can start a path and then realize
this doesn't actually feel like the right path for me
um and we can kind of have an oops like
and then we can correct it back
and sometimes we vacillate the other way
and she talks about this kind of idea of
most of us
getting to where we want is not like a straight line
it's it's going to have detours
we're going to go off of our path sometimes
and again all of that is
helps us to start to identify our own North Stars
our own desires and
I think that's
kind of an interesting way of thinking about it
as well yeah
rarely is it a straight line
and I know we'd like it to be that way
but life has never been that way for me
I don't think it is for really
anybody that I've talked to
and I'm thinking about maybe an add to that model
that I can see where even the decision
we often don't see it as a decision
to not make a decision is still a decision
I know I've come up to this point before
where I'm scared to make a decision
maybe spend money on something
do something and it's been helpful for me to own that
I'm actually not gonna make a decision right now
that is my decision you know
cause I can see with that model
where there's only two paths to go it
it seems but it's
it's also okay to hang out and not make a decision
and that can be maybe a third path
sometimes when we come to a crossroads
it's not always two
yeah
a the model is kind of a simplistic view
and then like you're saying
usually there's multiple paths
but one of those paths often is not making a decision
which is like you're saying
a decision right
and it's just helpful to acknowledge that
that if that's path C or path d
that that can also be right
yeah you know
when I think about
are there any limitations to this model
from my viewpoint I think
maybe
there are times where someone might look at this model
especially someone who already believes
that they always do everything right
like I guess
if that's a way that your brain works
to cope with fear if that's happening
that might be the time I'd say okay
that this might be a limiting model
because they might need to look at
even though all of these paths are right
they do also have consequences
and they are impacting your relationships
and if you're not looking at that impact
it doesn't allow you to do any course correcting
it doesn't allow you to learn and grow
so maybe that's one area where I see it could be
a limiting model if someone's stuck in that mindset
where they already always think that they're right
without counterbalancing that with
even if all these paths are right
can I pay real attention to what I'm learning from it
about myself and the world and my relationships
well they probably wouldn't be reading that book
even thinking about models to make decisions
if you think all your decisions are right
so I understand that caveat
and I doubt that anyone in that position
is listening to this podcast
and there's no reason to grow or learn anything
but you could be in a relationship with someone who is
like that yeah
I can see where trying to maybe explain that to them
or something's not gonna not gonna work
yeah do you have any suggestions
for someone who might be in a relationship
with someone who is like that
just leave I
I don't think there's anything to do
I mean some people
people perceive their partners as narcissistic
because when we get
or having narcissistic personality disorder
because when we get really scared
if we're not getting support for our strategies
if someone can't call us out
they're you know
go into more grandiose behaviors
on the self esteem access than
I think
a lot of people get labeled narcissistic when really
they're scared and strategic
and it still might be the best decision to leave
if there's no if they're not giving any ground on that
they're not taking any ownership
there's no vulnerability so
but yeah I've said this in my podcast before
if you really don't see this person changing at all
if you can look at their behavior and say
they haven't changed or it's getting worse
the best decision is to leave
and sometimes that will change people's behavior
and it will wake them up um
but I don't see what you do other than that
cause you're not gonna explain anything to them
if they think they're right about everything
well thank you Bryce
that feels pretty complete to me
anything else that you wanna add
no that's it
good episode Jen
thanks for having me on
yeah you're welcome
I love talking about this
alright thanks everyone
and we'll talk to you later
OK bye
bye bye
